Geri Cole: Man, this is incredible. Let’s talk also about the relationship between Nadia and Alan, because there’s a line when they first meet in that elevator that just felt so romantic to me when she was like, it was like I die all the time. And it was like, oh, me too. And their relationship feels romantic except they don’t seem like lovers. And I feel like it’s such a beautiful relationship. Can we talk about that development and how you guys [inaudible 00:27:39]?
Natasha Lyonne: Yeah, it’s funny, I saw some comments. Somebody was like, how come they’re not dating anymore? And I was like, did this person watch the first season? And I just said, obviously Charlie is incredible. And for me, I would say as a freewheeling, New Yorker, that is the sort of like the beauty and the depth of my sort of platonic friendships. And you do usually end up like, oh, you try it one night. Maybe it’s not a match, but now you can talk about all things together. And who knows, maybe they’d hook up again, but ultimately, what they found in each other is that they really they see each other. It’s kind of this survivor. It’s this weird language of like two people on a lifeboat and it kind of never goes away. And we talked a lot about that in the room.
Season one for Nadia is very clear. She’s sort of a defiant nihilist who moves towards connection with another human being. And in that connection finds a way out. And in season two, it’s kind of like, do they hang out every day? Probably not. They’re trying to sort of almost forget this. Maybe for a while they really did, but what they have together is that sort of like the emergency contact idea of like, you’re the person who really knows the contents of my soul intuitively, and I yours. Even though, externally, we wouldn’t mix because of this classic odd couple sort of your tidy, I’m a mess dynamic, you know? And yeah, I mean, she runs hot, he runs cool. We’re always playing that game with production design and the red and the blue, and the whole game of it. But ultimately, it’s like their souls see each other in this way that is beyond space and time of kind of like, this is a reason to go on living, stay in the fight. It’s like this idea that we can’t sort of see ourselves. That’s obviously a show that deals so much with one’s reflection in the mirror and being able to see self and being able to tolerate self on that basis.
And the idea that a true witness, I cannot see myself. I have a distortion where I cannot see self correctly. But in your eyes, I can see you the way you see me. And I think that Nadia gives that to Alan, and Alan gives that to Nadia, which is this idea of like don’t quit, baby. We’re in this together.
Geri Cole: Which is so romantic.
Natasha Lyonne: It is.
Geri Cole: To me like, it’s like, that’s the true.
Natasha Lyonne: I mean, on a deeper level, it’s like the most romantic. And of course this season, they were also sort of getting that sort of deeper reflection, like we all do in adulthood. At a certain point it’s kind of like middle age hits, you don’t know when you became an adult, and Ruth dying is this symbol of are you going to show up for your life? And be here in this present moment of this very adult responsibility where the child becomes the parent. And Nadia’s sort of saying like, no, I can’t hang. I’m not there yet. And it’s sort of dropping out, hanging out with Annie Murphy who wouldn’t want to. And it’s all fun and games until it’s like, no, you’re going to get the lesson, whether you’re dragged kicking and screaming, or you get on that bus willingly.
And so for Nadia and Alan, they kind of are brought to this sort of deeper understanding of self. That’s also a journey that they have to walk alone, but will always be kind of, this idea of sort of spooky action at a distance. Of this sort of double slit experiment and all this kind of vague sort of quantum physics type stuff. But that really ultimately means they are forever linked and bound for reasons unknown, just the way we are in life, that we go through all this stuff and we kind of fall apart and come back together as adults and who we’re meant to be like linked to seems to be ongoing.
Geri Cole: It also feels very true. It’s just like, I feel like I’ve certainly come across people. I’m like, oh, there you are. All right. It’s just such a beautiful thing.
Let’s also talk about, man. So many follow ups. Let’s talk about the character, of course, because I feel like it’s such a wild character that also, I feel like, you guys sort of deal with the issues of mental health. I feel like, and not in a traditional sense in this show. And so, because I feel like he really represents this outside perspective. That’s not tethered to anything that feels very exciting and also fun. Can we talk about the development of that character?
Alice Ju: I mean, Natasha can speak to where a Horse came from in season one. I can talk a bit about season two.
Natasha Lyonne: Yeah, I mean briefly, I knew a guy named Horse who ran around Tompkins Square Park and I’ve been friends with Brendan Sexton III since the nineties, and obviously somewhat of a mythological figure. But I say go off Alice, go off.
Alice Ju: Well, I think in one sense, obviously he functions as, and I think this came from season one. I remember, I think hearing Leslye referred to him as the trickster God. And there’s reference to Pan, there’s reference to Horse as the ferrymen in the end of the season where Nadia and Alan sort of have to give up there are worldly possessions in order to sort of cross over into another world. And what I really enjoy about Horse is like you have that reference. Such an ancient reference and then you bring it completely into the modern day where Horse is a very sort of openly transactional kind of character who lets us talk about commerce in an unexpected way. I think my favorite line of season one is when he talked about how he invented the dark web in the nineties and then dropped out of society or something like that.
And he’s not sort of like a magical guide or something like that that is leading Nadia and Alan to some sort of enlightenment. He very much has his own motivations. And I think in this season, something that we didn’t end up getting to shoot, partly because of just the COVID realities of production, was we had explored for a really long time this concept of the underground. Both literally and sort of politically. And we obviously have that in Alan’s storyline with the underground gathering of the East Berlin students and tunneling underneath the Berlin wall. And in the forties and in the eighties, two things we weren’t able to actually get on the screen were this idea of families who fled the kind of the Holocaust and unfriendly regimes in Hungary who had hid in the sewers underneath Budapest. And they lived like entirely outside time where they lived an inverse version of time, because they could only go out at night and that they would be sort of in the darkness in the day. And that was incredibly interesting.
And then in the eighties, within New York, there was also a large group of people who lived underneath the Freedom Tunnel, what was at the time, this abandoned tunnel running down the West Side, which is now an Amtrak tunnel. And I remember as a teenager, breaking into the Freedom Tunnel with my friends to see the last bits of graffiti that were like painted by the great artists of the eighties and nineties, just as the Amtrak Corp or whatever was washing them over. And we sort of wanted Horse to be someone who, unlike Nadia, was maybe a part of this community. I think at the end of seven we have him saying like, I live down here with my wife, like fuck you. What do you think you’re doing coming into my space. And this like total rejection of the order of time as it exists above ground and this complete lack of fear around the sort of mundane everyday things that we all live by up here. And as something that I wish I had made it in as I think Allison Silverman put him gathering [inaudible 00:35:42] off the tracks and getting a Lehman Brothers mug from back in the day or something like that and picking that up and selling it.
So yeah, I guess the answer is he sort of serves as all of those things at once. And then at the end he sort of leads us to the water, which obviously is the river, [inaudible 00:35:59] river, like sticks, like baptism. All of that. And yeah.
Natasha Lyonne: Oh yeah, we party in that room. All the time.
Geri Cole: Damn guys. Let’s talk about, Natasha you also direct, and I feel like this show is so cinematic. What is your approach, or rather, is there a scene from season two or anything that you’ve shot that you feel like especially has translated well from page to screen?
Natasha Lyonne: Yeah, I mean-
Geri Cole: And what’s something that totally changed from like from page to screen?
Natasha Lyonne: Look, I love this show on a deep, deep level. It means everything to me and the collaboration on this show is extraordinary. It really is like assembling the Avengers and we all push ourselves to the outer limits of what we’re capable of. And this season, the producing director is this guy, Alex Buono, who I met through Documentary Now!, who I just am absolutely obsessed with. And Alex’s history is also, he was a cinematographer for like 16 years. And we do have, of course this extraordinary cinematographer, Ula Pontikos, who’s brilliant. And we have this incredible production designer, Diane Lederman. And I say all that to say that with Alex, it was like, we’re really able to get to the end of an idea. So I would say that for me, sort of the joy of Alex as a partner in directing, and Alice, as a partner in writing, is that we would have these grains of an idea and they understood so deeply what they were that together, we would be able to realize them and bring them to life and get to the end of that thought in a real way, rather than just sort of saying, oh no, that’s too radical. It’s not possible.
And then we had these incredible people that were actually able to truly execute them. Meaning we would spend endless hours doing extensive story boarding sessions, a lot of this, there were times during the early days of the pandemic. And I remember Alice and I would be on these weird Zooms and we didn’t even know what Zooms were yet. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with Jodorowsky’s Dune the Documentary, but it’s also obviously the password in season one to get into the bar. And I love that documentary so much, but by the end it becomes just a, it’s a coffee table book of like, Moebius, I think that’s his name, sort of storyboards and they never get to make the movie. And there were times that COVID sort of prep, reassembling where none of us let go of the vision of the thing. I think in many ways, because a future was so uncertain altogether, in terms of just life in general. So it was like this tangible thing to hold onto, even though we weren’t sure if we were going to get to make it. And I was like, well I guess it’ll just be a book of storyboards with writing and that’s okay.
And so, I say all that, I say I’m like, I’m blown away that the thing exists on such a deep, like I’m very, very moved by it all. And seeing it on the big screen at the premiere with everybody and people laughing, they can really pick up all the nuance of all the Easter eggs. And anyway, so yeah, I guess I am really proud of that sequence, that sort of liminal space that Alice was just talking about from the finale that we wrote, because in part just because they showed us these pictures, in the room of like location Scouts in Budapest, and we were like, that’s it, those look like neural nets. That’s what we want. And then they said, oh no, you can’t shoot there because of COVID. And I’m just very, I think it’s very funny and I’m proud that I really stuck to the guns of that living the dream sort of seventies auteur style saying, I think we should shoot there. I mean, if there’s been a photograph of it, even though they’re saying it’s shut down, I believe we’re going to get in there.
And I just kept saying it and just sort of like, yeah, I think we should just commit to that though. And they kept telling us to rewrite it and it’s never going to happen. And sure enough, we got there and just by holding on to that dream, the next thing I know we’re standing in the cisterns and U was lighting it, and it’s gorgeous. And of course we then had to rewrite some stuff, because nobody accounted for the acoustics in the cisterns. You can’t hear anything. So that sort of scene changed a bit, but I find it so satisfying, my soul really calms down when I see that sequence of like, ah, we got it. We saw that vision, we drew it on paper, and there it is. Just like we said it would be. And I feel very sort of calmed by that in my soul.
Geri Cole: Yeah. That’s wild. Also, I love that you’re like, yeah, no, I’m going to just keep saying that’s what we’re doing and that’s what we’re going to do.
Natasha Lyonne: Yeah. I mean, I think that to me is always like the point of reading all these books. That’s why you want to be a student of things is so that you remember that there’s a lineage. You know what I mean? So if watch Hearts of Darkness, you’re like, oh, I see. So you can make some things in this life, or you read some of those books and you’re like, oh right. So there’s a bit of leeway to how sort of things get made, you know? And so, I always find that helpful to realize other people, you know what I mean? Have had to work really hard too, and you just stick it up.
Alice Ju: Yeah. And it’s pretty remarkable that Natasha, in the room pretty often encourages us to not think about the production realities of this type of show and what people expect. You have the budget to make a show that is a Friends in New York City sitcom plus or minus a little bit. And then obviously Natasha is like, I see the cisterns in Budapest and we’re going to go there. And we had done so much research about, like we loved the idea of going deeper and deeper. And we had done so much research about what is underneath the subway tunnels in New York, and it’s water and we were like looking at these photos from spelunkers who go down there and kind of bring back these like really, it’s like such an eerie mixture of the industrial and the natural to see the streams of water through. And we discovered that there are all these like holes underneath the city that civil engineers call voids. That they just kind of patch up and don’t fill in and hope that they don’t collapse, which we have Alan’s grandmother working in.
But I think now having worked on a bit more shows and seeing what kind of budgets other kind of sci-fi shows have and what Natasha and Alex and Ula and our whole crew were able to do with the material constraints that we had and the ambition that they had, is really, really remarkable. It’s like taking what you’re given to make friends or something like that and saying like, no, we’re going to make this expansive multi period sci-fi epic. And I mean really kudos to them, I think.
Geri Cole: Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Also, wow what? There’s things called voids?
Alice Ju: I know, I was really-
Geri Cole: That doesn’t surprise me.
Alice Ju: Yeah. I was really on a lot of like civil engineering forums from the Web 1.0 era. Like clicking page after page, seeing these engineers commenting about like, oh, just had to like fill in it or something like that.
Geri Cole: Wow.
Alice Ju: And we found out that the Astro Playstation, that kind of famous like little like green building that you enter into was actually modeled after the Hungarian, or actually specifically the Budapest subway stations. The designers sort of lifted one thing from the other, which was kind of like a late in the game discovery that it just really, you know, New York is just so much a composite of all these immigrants from all these different places cobbled together into the thing that we have. And it’s cool to see that reflected in the things that we’re seeing too.
Geri Cole: Yeah. I feel like I also, the show does such a beautiful job of really capturing New York City’s equal parts magic and trash. Really, it feels like it’s…
Natasha Lyonne: I like that, magic and trash. That is a whole vibe.
Geri Cole: Equal parts, equal parts.
Natasha Lyonne: But it is. There’s like, I mean, I think we’re so lucky that the people that watch the show seem to really enjoy the kind of nitty gritty of the details. But yeah, I think the things that people think are fantastical are usually practical and sort of vice versa in a weird way. Meaning it in like, Alice was just talking about it, but even in Germany with like the ghost stations and you’re just like what the hell are the names of it? So you got voids in New York. You got ghost stations in Berlin. What is happening in this crazy, crazy world we’re in. So yeah, that’s always, that’s what we say.
Geri Cole: Yeah. He was like, well, we didn’t make that part up.
Natasha Lyonne: That’s what I’m saying. You know what I mean? We don’t make the rules, we’re just writing them down. It’s just-
Alice Ju: Yeah, yeah. I think it is just like a realization of adulthood that there is nobody in charge and you have to take responsibility. And our whole world is just cobbled together, piece by piece and barely holding on by a thread. And you just have to make your way in that.
Geri Cole: It’s like the frightening reality of like, oh, is there no grownups? Am I the grownup? Shit. Yeah. So also since this is a writing podcast, I’d like to, if just briefly, if you guys want to talk about your writing process. If you have any sort of rituals that you’d like to share, is there anything, like do you just sit down and bang it out? Do you go for a walk? Do you need a certain arrangement of…
Natasha Lyonne: Well, Alice is a real, like Alice is hardcore. I don’t even know how you, like Alice has written so many drafts of this show. Also, like I, there was this one period that was pre-COVID and she would get locked up in a room with headphones on and she would literally pound out just a full script that was based on, sometimes we had these, I remember there was this point where we were about to be in production and we got notes at the last minute, and she just banged out like a full script in like 48 hours that was excellent. And then we had to kind of go back in after all like this whole sort of, essentially again, this season, our act three, sort of got thrown out. I mean, it’s happened both years. I’m guessing it’s not as uncommon as it seems, but on more general basis, usually I think we were doing something that’s fairly traditional, like of breaking a story in a room and sort of getting it down and turning it into an outline. And there would be a writer’s draft. And then there would be sort of notes from the room. And then we would go into secondary drafts, and third drafts, and eventually punch up and that kind of a thing.
It’s just that in a weird way, COVID threw a lot of that out the window as we got to the end of the room, which honestly was not that dissimilar from what happened in season one. You kind of slow burn by starting with something very formal and sort of normal. And then you get hit with a major note from Netflix and everything becomes very intensive. Would you say that’s true, Alice?
Alice Ju: I think so. I think, like personally as a writer, I think I’m fairly masochistic in that I can just go write the drafts and I enjoy being the flow state, and I’m not precious and it can be thrown out. And I think that’s a good skill to have when you’re on staff and you are not the showrunner, and you’re really writing to serve someone else. And that’s something I really enjoy.
But I think as a room, our process is like, there’s a very organic element to it, which I think is true of all rooms, maybe more so in Russian Doll because we have this thing that we’re building and we have this structure, but every script is sort of open until the end. And we’re constantly coming in with new realizations, or a new piece of reading, or an image that we saw browsing the internet or something like that. And we’re thinking like, oh, that could go there. And this connection, we could connect this and this, and lines and whole scenes are getting changed up until the end. And I think that’s the type of surrealism or magical realism that we do in the room is really that back and forth between people who are very logic brained and letting that kind of dissolve into the dream logic that we end up using for the show. And at times I know, I remember Allison Silverman brought in Brian Eno had developed these cards called Oblique Strategies, which are just like a deck of cards and each has kind of like a oblique phrase or something like that. And they aren’t meaningful on their own, but they can jog something or trigger something.
And so, we kind of went back and forth between that type of work and the like, okay, let’s sit down and really hammer out what the structure of this scene or this story is at the same time. And so, it does feel like a living thing that we don’t necessarily have control of, that we sort of like birthed altogether as a room or something like that. And it really has a lot of pieces of all of us in it that grow and become something else. So the way I’m describing it makes it seem kind of like it unholy, like Lynchian, like a baby or something like that. But it does kind of have that, it’s like the Eraserhead baby, if we had all made it [inaudible 00:49:28].
Geri Cole: Not a bad thing.
Natasha Lyonne: I will say it was also really interesting just to watch this SNL process, because it’s so compressed. Where it sort of, I was like, holy shit, this is what we do as sort of writers, creators is you take something and it’s basically just this shared, this small team has to just believe in it, while it’s still, like Alice is describing this like amorphous mercurial sort of non-thing, but everybody’s got to hold on to those scrambled eggs long enough and believe in it hard enough that it will materialize. That all of a sudden it’s kind of like, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it’s tight, tight, tight, tight. Watching something go from like a hundred sketches. And then within four days become like 12, or eight, or whatever it is, is a radical process just because it’s so compressed.
And it’s like that brain trust has to really believe in the thing, because it’s so scary in those times where it’s not concrete yet. You know what I mean? And definitely, we had a lot of stuff like, you know, Alice and I would just be on these calls, like, holy shit, man. We had a lot of scheduling stuff because of COVID that we just didn’t have control over. So badly as whatever, when you’re making something you want so badly to be in charge of the destiny of the thing. But we were at the mercy of other people’s schedules, and other people’s shoots, and other people’s COVID shutdowns. So, we would be like having these brainstorm sessions where we would essentially be back burnering, if we end up losing this character, we’re going to have to rebreak this entire story. And we would be both of us, like heartbroken on the phone, like, yeah, I guess it would work, but it’s just not ideal, is it?
And then they would come through and the contract would be official, and their plane tickets, and we would be like celebrating. We can keep it! We keep it all! And then still, once that was sort of in, I guess, in many ways, sort of the most joyous work is kind of now we’re just in the fine tuning game of like, maybe we’re trying to kind of cut a page and we’re just making everything juicier, and more specific, and more dialed in and more jokes. That final phase of the shooting drafts, it’s very fun when it’s like first idea that’s exciting and insane, and it’s very fun to be like, now it’s all the way. It’s about to be photographed, it’s official.
And then there’s a lot of phases in between that are just like this roller coaster you got to ride where some days you’re like a king and other days you’re the biggest loser in the world. It is a wild ride, because it’s also like, you’ve got to get, I think, for Alice and I it’s like the joy of it is also like, we’re brutally honest with each other, you know what I mean? So it’s like really no, if something is genuinely bringing us joy, we’re so elated. And if we’re kind of like trapped up against the wall with an idea, it’s like, ah, geez, man. How are we ever going to get out of here? I mean, I got to say like, I love it. There’s nothing as… It’s really like a thrilling adventure to do something like this at this level, with this particular team, you know?
Geri Cole: Man, it sounds like a thrilling adventure. So it sounds like I have time for one more question. So I have to ask you guys, this is a question that I love to ask everyone who comes on the podcast, because I like asking this question. And it’s about the idea of success, because I feel like in creative professions, and all aspects of life, but specifically often creative professions, the idea of success feels like a destination you’re never arriving to, or at least for me. And I feel like, a lot of folks, it can feel like this. Yeah. A location you’re never going to arrive. So I’m curious as to how you guys define success for yourself and how that may have evolved over time.
Alice Ju: I guess I have had a much, much shorter career than Natasha, so it’s definitely still something I’m figuring out. But I think a lot of my friends in New York are sort of in the indie film world and they’re making the projects they really believe in on a shoestring budget, and they don’t care about maybe the version of success that you are surrounded with when you are like in LA. And everyone’s talking about like, who’s pitching what, and who’s doing what, and all of that. And I really admire the way that my friends go about making their art, because it is about the art first. And I think if it’s not about the love of the writing and your relationship to the writing, or the filmmaker, or whatever it is, you’re never going to have peace or something like that. You’re always going to be chasing something external. And it’s always going to be something that’s outside of your control or something like that.
And I have this one friend who makes these micro budget films and he says, I can make a film for a very small amount of money. I’m going to live a long life. I want to make one great film in my life, and it can cost $10,000 or whatever it is. And I think I’ve really taken that to heart where it’s like, I really want to develop my craft. I really want to learn to be better. I want to learn with the best, but in the scheme of my life, if I make one great thing, that to me I feel satisfied with as a writer, a filmmaker, or whatever, then that’s enough and I’m going to remove myself from the Hollywood rat race and all of that.
So yeah, I feel very blessed to have a lot of sort of young friends that are far braver than me when it comes to making their art. But yeah, that’s sort of where I’m at now.
Natasha Lyonne: For me, I would say it’s having been there and been to the top of the mountain, I guess by that, I just mean like American Pie is the number one movie in the country. This random thing that I have no affiliation with, and it’s kind of like, okay, so now you’re at the top, who cares? And having then dropped out for basically a decade and returned again, and yada yada. It’s like I know there’s no, there there sort of on a spiritual basis. And I really do believe in this kind of, I know it’s already, and I apologize, but I do believe in a sort of quest for the truth and a quest for meaning and that I feel so lucky that it’s like Universal, Netflix are throwing money at essentially this brain trust of like assembling this team that is again, this season, it’s an all female writer’s room, which is, it sort of just happens for some reason. And it’s like the biggest brains and the funniest, most complicated women I can find, you know? And then we just go after it to really try to say something. You don’t get a lot of shots at life, or you get that creative freedom to actually say something.
And like Alice is saying, it’s not really about winning or losing. It is about actually making something. For me, as like a weirdo, outcast teenager who sat in the back of the class and felt uncomfortable in my skin. It’s very, when I would see, or hear, or read something that made me feel seen and less alone, it was everything. It was like the reason to go on another day. Like life make sense. And I always feel like for us, that’s what we’re trying to do is just lessen that load. That Albatross, that these kids are carrying around just a little bit. You got shame around the untreated mental illness in your family unit, whatever. We’re talking about it. You feel uncomfortable in your skin. You’re not sure how to hack it. We’re here for you buddy. We’re fine. We like being that show that can reach people on an individual basis, because if you look at the statistics, if you look at the news, it’s like people are dropping like flies, and it feels like life can be too much or inundated with all this information constantly that’s completely overwhelming. It’s like the country’s built on this weird foundation of lies. We’re supposed to kind of just constantly pretend isn’t happening.
And it’s a worthy endeavor to just make the thing, to make it to say what you want to say, because I mean, that is the whole show, right? It’s like we live and we die and nobody gets out of here alive. So I’m not sure what the big win anybody thinks they’re going to pull off is on a purely material, superficial relative plan. It’s got to be a little bit deeper as an endeavor, you know? So, we try. We try our best, and hopefully it connects with a few people.
Geri Cole: Wow. Guys, geez Louise. Thank you so much for talking with me today. This is such an amazing show. I really feel like, can you put a camera in your writer’s room? Because I feel like the conversations you must be having are incredible, and they should be recorded for a separate thing.
Alice Ju: You would just see flies coming out of the walls of our like infested evil rock house.
Geri Cole: Flies coming out of the walls? Man.
Alice Ju: Yeah.
Natasha Lyonne: It’s just me walking around the fly swatter and like 40 whiteboards that are completely dense with maps and weird…
Geri Cole: Yes, I want a video of all that. I think we could all use it. Yes, thank you. Thank you so much for making this show. Thank you so much for talking for us today. Are we allowed to talk about a season three? Can we expect a season three? Is there…
Natasha Lyonne: And we don’t have that kind of power, you know? And so, may the gods be with us. I don’t know what to tell you. I wish we were in charge, but such is not the way the game is played.
Geri Cole: Well, let me know if there’s someone I can send harassing tweets, texts. I don’t know. Harassing messages too. And I’ll…
Natasha Lyonne: Thank you.
Geri Cole: I’m on board.
Natasha Lyonne: Thank you. That sounds fun. We should do that.
Geri Cole: That’s it for this episode. OnWriting is a production of the Writers Guild of America East and is hosted by me, Geri Cole.
This series was created and is produced by Jason Gordon. Tech production and original music by Taylor Bradshaw at Stock Boy Creative. Our associate producer and designer is Molly Beer. You can learn more about the Writer’s Guild of America East online at wgaeast.org. And you can follow the Guild on all social media platforms at WGA East. If you like this podcast, please subscribe and rate us. Thank you for listening and write on.
