Transcript
OnWriting Narrator: Hello. You’re listening to OnWriting, a podcast from the Writers Guild of America, East. In each episode, you’ll hear from the writers of your favorite films and television series. They’ll take you behind the scenes, go deep into the writing and production process, and explain how they got their project from the page to the screen.
Greg Iwinski: Hi. Welcome to OnWriting, a podcast from the Writers Guild of America, East. I’m your host, Greg Iwinski. Today, I’m talking to Michael Waldron, writer of Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. We talk about the Harmon Story Circle, how the worlds of wrestling and comic books are similar, and the cultural obsession with spoiling things. Speaking of which, we do get into spoilers about Doctor Strange, so be warned.
Very cool to talk to you. Saw the movie. Loved it. I watched a ripped copy on my phone, and it looked great.
Michael Waldron: As it was meant to be seen. There or on a plane.
Greg Iwinski: Yes.
Michael Waldron: That’s how I was hoping people would watch.
Greg Iwinski: A phone on a plane, the high descent.
Michael Waldron: That’s exactly.
Greg Iwinski: But no. Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness or Doctor Strange 2, if you have less time, really cool film. I know you’ve done a zillion junket things. And you’ve also had a million people say, “You’ve done a million junket things,” and then try to ask you new questions. So hopefully, I will do that and ask you some things you haven’t been asked. But first off, okay, you started writing Loki when Endgame comes out.
Michael Waldron: Yes.
Greg Iwinski: Then, you jump over to Multiverse of Madness. Now, you are working technically on a Star Wars project, unannounced, whatever. But I guess, my question is this, have you come up with a boilerplate way to brush off friends and family who are trying to get secrets out of you?
Michael Waldron: Yeah. I mean, at this point, I guess I’ve been doing it long enough that they just know not to ask. I think my mom still gets a little bit, she’s still like, “Come on. What? Are you not going to tell me?” And I’m like, “No. You know what? I’m sorry, mom. Not even you.”
Greg Iwinski: Does she have TMZ on the speed dial? I mean she’s…
Michael Waldron: Yeah.
Greg Iwinski: It’s got to be safe to tell your mom.
Michael Waldron: My mom’s going to tweet who’s in the Illuminati, and she wants to boost her Reddit cred. So I can’t trust her.
Greg Iwinski: Ah, yeah. I mean, it just seems like with these kinds of projects, there are so many people poking at you to get stuff all the time, to get a character. There’s Instagram videos of just trying to get actors to slip about whether other actors are in projects. How much energy do you have to put into your work, not just being your own good work, but also staying safe from prying eyes?
Michael Waldron: Well, I guess it’s conversations like this one, press ones, that’s when I have to be the most careful. Typically, it’s like, all right, if I’m at dinner, nobody knows who I am. I’m not in too big of danger of anything slipping. Although, there have been times that I’ve needed to work on pages on an airplane or something. And I get paranoid. I’m like, “Wait. Who was behind me? Was that guy taking pictures? Is this going to end up online? Is that it? Is my career over?”
But I mean, I don’t know. I remember the first time I went to Marvel for my very first meeting on Loki. Everybody is always like, “Oh, my God. I can’t believe the NDA that I had to sign.” But it’s like, as you’re working on this stuff, you realize, all right, we’re all working our asses off. And you just, you want to keep it secret because you worked so hard and you know that it’s just going to be more fun for the audience if they don’t know what’s coming. At least, for some of the audience. I mean, I also understand some people, they want to be spoiled. That’s part of the fun for them. And typically, they’ll be able to find everything out and power through.
Greg Iwinski: Well, see, that’s something I want to ask about is, do you think that there’s some kind of a loss of anticipation, maybe culturally in pop culture, because you think about like, you and I are around the same age, Matrix comes out, Matrix 2, Matrix 3. Lord of the Rings comes out, the prequels. All these movies that you’re maybe getting a hint of something online, but there isn’t the same spoiler culture, so you are dying that midnight showing just with anticipation. Do you think that we’ve kind of lost an appreciation for waiting?
Michael Waldron: Totally, right? I mean, yeah, I guess that’s probably all of our culture, isn’t it? That we can just have everything all at once, including the plots of movies that we anticipate. I mean, I remember plumbing Ain’t It Cool News talk backs for like, all right, what’s going to happen in Matrix Reloaded? I was that guy. But I don’t know if I would’ve been doing that if I had known that the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow was actually a full description of the entire movie you can find now. You really can get it all if you’re willing to look. And I mean, I don’t really…
Greg Iwinski: It seems so unappealing to me. I don’t know if it’s because I’m a writer or just the kind of person I am, because it’s like, I would rather have a finished meal and not just sneak around, peeking into a bunch of ingredients. Just let me see the movie.
Michael Waldron: Right, right. It’s like, I was really looking forward to the new Top Gun: Maverick. And I had to really be careful with, okay, how much of this am I going to ingest before I see the Goose’s ghost comes back in a sea? By the way, that’s not a spoiler. Or is it?
Greg Iwinski: I will say we are going to spoil Doctor Strange in this interview, but I am not going to try to get any info out of you about future projects because as I’ve said, I enjoy anticipation. I will say watching, for Doctor Strange, I was skipping TV commercials, I was skipping any kind of teasers online because it’s like, don’t tell me who’s in the Illuminati. Don’t tell me that there is an Illuminati. I’m happy to go in blind and say, “Wow”. There were two different times I said “Wow” out loud in the theater to the stranger next to me.
Michael Waldron: That’s great. That’s great.
Greg Iwinski: It’s really great. I had three immediate reactions walking out of the theater, which was, this is a horror movie. It’s the type of horror movie where the monster chases you the whole time. Terminator 1 is like that. There’s always this thing chasing you. And that I’ve never seen a Marvel movie that took that established cinema aesthetic and put it into a Marvel space. How, when you were writing the movie, did you keep that kind of, the footsteps are behind you, badump, badump, badump? How did you keep that pacing going at the same time that you’re telling a story that’s like, hey, there’s a bunch of universes and a bunch of yous, and the what version of yourself? There’s two giant things happening at the same time. How did you make sure that you kept that kinetic energy of the monsters always chasing you?
Michael Waldron: You had exactly the reaction that we hoped you would have. So I’m glad to hear that. I think that I absolutely was thinking about Terminator, and T2, and Alien, and Aliens, and Jurassic Park as well. Those are my favorite kind of horror movies that are thrillers as much as they are… I wouldn’t call myself the biggest horror aficionado, but I love Terminator. So it’s like, whatever kind of horror movie that is, that’s what I love.
Well, first off, when you have Sam Raimi directing, the nice thing is, is you know that all the horror stuff is going to be great. I didn’t really have to do much, but just try to set Sam up, try to set him up to succeed with what he’s already so great at. And so that was like, all right, let’s write a chase through the tunnels with Wanda pursuing our heroes. And I know that that sequence is going to be incredibly thrilling because it’s a master of horror shooting.
Greg Iwinski: Yeah. He really shines in that sequence. The idea that no matter how much you hurt the monster, you don’t stop the monster.
Michael Waldron: Exactly. And she’s on [inaudible 00:08:04]. And so suddenly we’re on set, and Sam’s got cameras on the backs of little dirt bikes, riding in front of Elizabeth Olsen as she runs through the sewer. And it’s like, great, that’s the dream.
As far as how do you balance the horror verse, the Multiverse of it all, I, at least, and I’ve had probably more experience now with the Multiverse than I would’ve liked to, between Rick and Morty, and then Loki, and now this, I really was just focused on the horror of it all.
When I think of the multiverse, those are just other locations you go. Those are locations you go that have cool character opportunities to show your character’s reflections of themselves, alternative lives, paths perhaps they might have taken. But it’s really ultimately no different. And I thought about time travel the same way. It’s just a location. It’s just like, all right, we’re going to another planet. And so don’t get hung up on “this is that complex of a sci-fi” idea. It’s just this is the location we’re going. It’s another universe. And that’s where our monster chase is going to happen.
Greg Iwinski: Right. Because then it flavors the scenes, but you don’t have to do all this math about, well, we’re in this universe and we have to build everything from scratch about how people… It’s just another place. That’s the thing about that.
Michael Waldron: Yeah. Because if I’m thinking about that, then the guy who walks in off the street is thinking about it. And the movie becomes inaccessible. And it shouldn’t be. And that was something that was really important to Sam.
Greg Iwinski: So this is a spoiler for the movie, but very early on, Doctor Strange buries a worst Doctor Strange in a planter on a Manhattan rooftop. And so you said in an interview that you had already, kind of script-wise, buried him there, and then later realized you could bring him back as Zombie Strange.
Michael Waldron: Yes. Well, if I said that, I misspoke. And so allow me to set the record straight.
Greg Iwinski: Okay. I’m not trying to “got you” you.
Michael Waldron: In fact, that was probably in a press day where I had no idea what I was saying. I think it was the idea that originally, that dead body didn’t come through the portal with America. And then the idea came to dream walk into a corpse. But it was like, how am I going to get that corpse to our universe? Oh, right. He dies right in front of America. Just have him get sucked through. And so it was one of those writing things where it’s like, oh, thank God. The table was actually already set. And I just didn’t realize it.
Greg Iwinski: Now, did you ever refer to that body as Chekhov’s corpse?
Michael Waldron: For sure.
Greg Iwinski: You set it up in the third act, it has to go off.
Michael Waldron: For sure. For sure. But ironically so, because it wasn’t part of a master plan. That was a relatively late addition, scripting-wise.
Greg Iwinski: Okay. This is a little more writer-y process-y, but reshoots happen on all sorts of movies, especially bigger movies as things change. But what is the writing process like for reshoots, in general, on big movies or TV shows or those? Are you coming back and solving story problems and rewriting whole new sequences? Are you going on set and solving things? What is the role of a writer in those big budget reshoots?
Michael Waldron: Well, it kind of, it depends and it varies, especially in a movie as big as this one. A lot of what gets reported as reshoots are in fact, a finishing of the movie. It’s really just additional photography that’s actually just completion of original photography. So for instance, we didn’t shoot almost the entirety of the Illuminati sequence until our additional photography stage back in Los Angeles. And a large part of that was actor availability and wanting to get as many people in the same room as we could. So my role there was you have the benefit of you’ve put the movie together around these unfinished scenes. And so, you can kind of hone them in, based on what you know the movie needs in a working cut. And so, I’m revising them based on that. And then, yeah, I’m there on set, the same as I was on set in principal photography, working with Sam and with the actors, just trying to keep things moving.
And then of course, there’s always built in, an opportunity to reshoot certain scenes if you feel like something wasn’t quite working or if you’ve had a discovery that maybe would help hone in a character motivation or a step in a character’s journey. Then you’ll go back and maybe you’ll write a whole new scene that you’ll shoot, or you’ll redo an existing scene. And it’s just, it’s no different than being on set originally. It’s just, if anything, you have a better sense of what you’re doing and what you’re trying to accomplish. You can be a little more surgical.
Greg Iwinski: So it’s not a process where you’re going, “Well, script’s finished. Now, you guys make it. There’s no more things we’re going to change.” You’re up right until the day, which is very similar to late-night. Until you’re out of time, you can keep writing and writing and writing.
Michael Waldron: Absolutely. We’re going to the very end, I was still writing ADR for Doctor Strange a month and a half before we released. And I love that. And certainly with these Marvel movies, it’s a very collaborative process. On the two things that I’ve made, fortunately, we’ve never had to do surgery on the projects. It’s always additive. It’s like, all right, these things are good. How do we help them take a leap? How do we make them even better? And so, yeah, I enjoy that part of the process.
Greg Iwinski: Yeah. I mean, coming from the late-night world that I’m from, the idea of being able to go, “Oh, I have one more good idea,” and squeezing that in is always so rewarding.
Michael Waldron: Totally. Yeah. And it’s very helpful because you’ve seen a cut. At the very least, you’ve seen an editor’s assembly. You know what’s working, what isn’t working. And you just, you fortunately have the resources to try and make things better where that feels really important.
Greg Iwinski: Yeah. I have a joke based question, based off something you did in an interview. You talked about talking with Sam Raimi. You, coming up with jokes, and him asking you on set, “Well, is it honest? Is this honest?” Could you talk a little bit more about, like Rick and Marty slings jokes. I’m from late-night, we’re just shooting jokes out. What you learned about honest jokes and what that means to you going forward.
Michael Waldron: Yeah, well, yeah. I think I talked about that. That was something that Sam heard from Alvin Sargent, the great writer of Paper Moon, who called him on that, because Sam, I think, and his brother had written a gag for Spider-Man in the elevator, in Spider-Man 2. And Sam said they were proud to show it to Alvin or something. And Alvin said, “It’s not honest.” I was like, “Oh, my God. Alvin Sargent’s saying that to you.”
And so I think that it’s always looking for the truth, as cheesy as that is, in every moment. Don’t sell out your characters. Don’t sell out the drama of the scene just because you know you could get a laugh, because it’s not always worth it. A line that usually gets a laugh in this movie is the bit about America doesn’t know who Spider-Man is, and it’s Strange and Wong trying to explain. It’s like, “This is kind of gross. What is a Spider-Man?” And America’s genuinely like, “Ew.” And that, that felt good because that was really rooted in truth. And her, here’s this kid who really, when you say, “Spider-Man”, she thinks, “Is that a guy? Is that literally a spider man?” And so those are the best kinds of jokes.
Greg Iwinski: I think that’s similar to something we talked about. We talked about a lot in Chicago Improv is that your characters are playing to the top of their intelligence. They’re reacting how they would normally react. And so you’re not, like you said, selling them out. You’re not bending them just for a joke, because I think there can be a thing that happens, especially in action stuff, where you build up a beautiful or interesting or human moment, and then you just kind of crush it because you can get a joke, and then move on.
Michael Waldron: Exactly. And especially in the Marvel world where there has been such an incredibly established action-comedic sensibility, it’s like, okay, well it’s my job to be… It’s humor and heart. And that’s the job here. But it really is a delicate alchemy. And I found you’re better off airing on the side of drama, let the comedy come organically. Anything that’s set up punchline, that I maybe think is good on the page, it always dies on the day. And the people who sniff that out the fastest are the actors because that’s ultimately who you might be selling out with a cheap joke. Typically, that means that one of the characters is being an idiot. And the actors, especially in the Marvel world, they’re real stewards of their characters. And they’ve been playing them over several projects with different creative teams. And it’s up to them to maintain continuity of character and voice and intelligence level. And so yeah, it’s good to trust them and trust their instincts on that stuff.
Greg Iwinski: Yeah. Okay. So a lot of Doctor Strange stuff that’s, I don’t even have time to ask all my Doctor Strange questions, but jumping around a little multiversal in your career, you are a huge wrestling guy.
Michael Waldron: Yes.
Greg Iwinski: I’ve seen. So I was Attitude Era. I was watching the Hell in a Cell, Mick Foley with thumbtacks in his face. Somehow my parents let me watch that. So I wanted to put a question in wrestling terms, which is that you’ve now done Loki and Doctor Strange. Now you’re moving on to other giant IPs. Is it a coincidence that your projects have the same person play the face in the heel? Or is that like a thing you’re drawn to? Both in Loki and Doctor Strange, he is playing both parts.
Michael Waldron: Probably not. I guess I could say, well, they’re just two multiversal time travel things. That’s the way it worked out. But I’m fascinated with duality, as I think every writer is. And I’m lucky to get to work in a world, in this big sci-fi comic book world, where you can actually confront alternate versions of yourself, the heroic version of yourself, the villainous version of yourself. I’ve said before that I wasn’t a comic book fan, but I was a pro wrestling fan. And it feels like it was just a step to the left. They’re the same.
Greg Iwinski: Yeah. You have yearlong arcs, the same way you do in comics. You have big tentpole crossovers, the same way you do in comics.
Michael Waldron: Exactly.
Greg Iwinski: You have people die and come back to life. You have Vince get beat with the bed pan in the hospital, and then he’s fine. Or the limo explodes.
Michael Waldron: Exactly. You have pissed off fans all the time.
