Transcript
Geri Cole: Hi, I’m Geri Cole and you’re listening to OnWriting, a podcast from the Writers Guild of America East. In each episode, you’re going to hear from the people behind your favorite films and television series, talking about their writing process, how they got their project from the page to the screen and so much more. Today, I’m excited to welcome to the podcast, Julie Rottenberg and Elisa Zuritsky, writers and executive producers of, “And Just Like That,” now airing on HBO and HBO Max. Julie and Elisa’s credits include, Sex and the City. Six Degrees, Smash, Odd Mom Out and Divorce. In this episode, we talk about how they’ve first came to work on Sex and the City, their very intimate writing process for, “And Just Like That,” and how success can sometimes feel like being lost in L.A.
Well, let’s get started. Thank you so much ladies for joining us today. I’m so excited to talk about this show. There is so much to unpack. I mean, it’s like, this is a big reboot of an iconic series. That’s had a lot of real life drama, sort of affecting the process. So I’m very excited to get into it. I also want to issue spoiler alerts for anyone listening, we will be talking about … I mean, I feel like everyone … like this show is so talked about. It’s like, everyone probably already knows this is going on, but just to be fair, spoiler alert, we’re going to talk about things that happen in the season. I do want to start briefly, you guys both worked on Sex and the City. Just talk a little bit about like how you got there and like a little bit what that was like, because again, it’s an iconic show that was the basis of this one.
Julie Rottenberg: That’s a huge story
Geri Cole: It’s not a brief answer.
Julie Rottenberg: This is Julie, by the way. Elisa and I, our voices are often confused, so I’ll just mention that. Well, I guess I should go back a little bit and mention that, Elisa and I met when we were nine at a Saturday morning acting class in Philadelphia. So when I say our story goes way back, I’m serious, and we became fast friends and have been friends ever since, and we started working together really just a year or two before Sex and the City came around and it was really the greatest break of all time. It was our first real staffing job. We were huge fans of the show. So for us to even to have a meeting with those guys, it was Michael Patrick King and Jenny Bicks and Cindy Chupack and Darren Star were all in the room when we first met with them. And that already was like, we could die happy. We were so excited just to meet them. So then to actually be invited to work on the show, it was a dream come true.
Elisa Zuritsky: And it happened about nine months after we had that meeting. So, we had a very small development deal with a company. It was Studios USA at the time. Now, it’s NBC Universal, I guess and we had sold this little pilot to ABC and we were in LA and we were very excited about this first break that we had and got called in to meet the writers of our favorite show and nothing came of it, and we didn’t even really think anything could come of it, and it was about nine months later when our pilot wasn’t being made. We weren’t exactly sure what our next steps were going to be, that we heard that Michael Patrick King, who had just taken over the show from Darren in the fourth season, Darren had moved on and Michael was going to be running the show for the first time, wanted to hire us from that meeting nine months ago.
Julie Rottenberg: And it’s true when our pilot didn’t go, and as Elisa mentioned, that was our first ever like getting paid for something you write, job. So that we thought was … that was so exciting and when that pilot didn’t go, I remember thinking, “Oh, we’re done, that’s it? That was our chance,” and back to … we both had day jobs and it was just like, “Oh, well tried that. I guess this whole writing for TV thing, isn’t going to work out.” And then we went on some other interviews with other shows and they were all not interested in us and again, it just underscored this idea that like, “That was it. That was our break and now, it’s over.” So to hear that Sex and the City, that that meeting we took, that just felt like a dream would actually turn into a real job, was truly mind-blowing.
Geri Cole: That’s so inspiring to hear, and I feel like super helpful to just remember where it’s like, you never know what’s around the corner like, the thing that you thought was going to be your thing is like maybe not your thing and it’s good because-
Elisa Zuritsky: Yes, we have so many stories about that and even since Sex and the City, like the cycle of trying and throwing things at the wall and jobs that don’t come through, pilots that don’t get of picked up, we didn’t know when we started out that that was what the career actually entailed and it’s been such a lesson in really persevering and resilience and brushing yourself off and saying, “Okay, what’s next? What else do we have?” I tell people who are thinking about embarking on this career, one the many upsides of being in a writing partnership is … especially with someone who you have a really strong bond and endless trust and respect for, is just that sort of emotional bolstering of being able to weather the knocks together and kind of take turns feeling hopeless and take turns being the one who’s like, “Yeah, fuck them, it’s going to be okay, we’ll …” Next thing, “Oh, I have a new idea.” That is a huge, huge upside of a partnership.
Julie Rottenberg: It’s so true and as Elisa says, sometimes we take turns and one of us is really down and feeling bleak and dark, and I think I’m pretty good at playing out every dark scenario with like evidence and here is why we’re never going to work again, and here’s why … whatever just happened is really the worst thing that’s ever happened to us and Elisa is great at being an optimist.
Elisa Zuritsky: I can take you on in pessimism. Yeah.
Julie Rottenberg: I’m about to say we take turns like, then it’s fun. It’s like, I give her the mic and then she’s like, here’s why-
Elisa Zuritsky: Despondent.
Julie Rottenberg: Yes, so we suck.
Geri Cole: It’s like, who’s turn is it to spiral, is it yours?
Julie Rottenberg: Yes, [crosstalk 00:07:13]. And then, sometimes, it’s tricky when we’re both really down.
Geri Cole: Yeah.
Julie Rottenberg: Sometimes, that’s all less-
Elisa Zuritsky: Sometimes we both have to take it to our beds, but I will say that doesn’t typically last more than a day or two but I also-
Geri Cole: Yeah, it’s true. You’re saying, it’s like, it’s also kind of a part of the gig, which I think is like important to remember.
Julie Rottenberg: A hundred percent. Not even kind of, 100%. It’s true. That’s the scariest part and it’s why I love listening to those other podcasts of yours is hearing other people that we worship and respect and revere, talk about how hard it was for them or even just how hard it is to look at a blank page that having that camaraderie is so important and sadly because this is the business, it is for writers, no matter how high you soar or what great gig you have or what awards you want, after that, you’re back at the bottom again and starting new.
Geri Cole: Yeah.
Elisa Zuritsky: Or even if you’re not at the bottom, you swing the bat and you might miss a bunch more before you actually make contact again. I really feel … like talent is talked about, luck is talked about, but I don’t think this trait or this quality is talked about enough, the ability to really just keep going, no matter what and sometimes you’re going to feel like a gambler in a casino, pulling the lever and going, “Come on. This time, let’s do it.” I think it needs to be out there.
Geri Cole: Yeah. It needs to be acknowledged that that is a part of what you’re signing up for, because also, it helps you process it. It helps you be like, “Okay, I’m not crazy. Everyone is doing this, and this is just it.” So yes, I do want to get into-
Julie Rottenberg: The actual show?
Geri Cole: The actually show, but actually speaking of fears, I’m curious as to … if there was, I’m sure there were many, but like one thing that you were super excited about in making this reboot, and then what was the thing that you were very scared about, making the reboot?
Julie Rottenberg: I’ll start with the fear and then go to excitement, because that’s kind of how I live my life, the fear, and this is probably not surprising, the fear was do we dare go back to this iconic show that made such an impact and that so many people loved and connected to. Do we dare go back and open up that house again and see what’s going on inside with all these characters that we loved. It did feel like the altitude was very high. Do we attempt to fly way up there again? That was scary, I will say, but that was rivaled by the thrill and excitement about getting to open up that box again and see those people again and imbue those characters with our experiences as women who are … we’re now 51 and we have had a lot of experiences, since we left them all 20 years ago or less – math, not my forté.
So the excitement and the fear, they were sort of duking it out and the excitement definitely won.
Elisa Zuritsky: Yeah, that definitely covers both basis. I guess I can add one more to the fear pile. I think as we were writing and as we were shooting the show, they were really both hand in hand. Their feelings were constantly side by side with each other for me, and there was always the realization that no matter which path we took, and if you listen to the, “And Just Like That” writer’s room podcast, you hear some of the many, many roads we considered for all of the stories that you wound up seeing. I mean, we talk a lot about yeah roads explored and not taken. I think we are constantly aware of the fact that no matter what we do or did, whichever choice we made, we were going to be upsetting some people and that realization has definitely turned out to be true, and that just made it, I think difficult, tricky, exciting, scary, everything.
Geri Cole: Man, speaking of, guys, I must admit, I was mad. I was mad at the end of episode five. I was mad at you. I was mad, you shut back my happy ending.
Julie Rottenberg: Sorry. We owe personal apologies.
Geri Cole: It was such a big swing I’m so … and this is sort of getting into later questions that I have about the arcs of these characters. It kind of feels like it’s also, in order to create something new, you had to because it was like … Jason and I were talking about this actually, before you guys got on, that it was like, there’s no … because the couple was so iconic, there was no world where they both existed and they weren’t together. So, it was like, you kind of had to get rid of one of them or I mean, like rather big, but I still want to know, how did you get to that decision of killing Mr. Big?
Julie Rottenberg: Well, that’s easy, believe it or not. For us, when I say easy, obviously it was a painful, emotional story beat, but in terms of the idea when Michael Patrick King called us up and said, “Hey, do you want to come do this show with me?” He already knew that was the story. So, it was all part of that same conversation.
Elisa Zuritsky: And it wasn’t … I’ll speak for myself, but I think it’s pretty universally true for the writers in the room that it was creatively a sort of no-brainer for me. It makes so much sense, even though it’s upsetting, I think because it’s upsetting and because it’s real, it felt very real to me that that character would lose the piece of her life that she spent the entire previous season fighting for and then winning, and then we got to see the fairy tale. It felt like, what the hell else could we watch these people do together?
Julie Rottenberg: Well, and also one of the reasons I was glad we were doing it, although again, that’s not the right word, but I believed in that choice, I should say, is because … and I know one of the criticisms of the end of the series was that it was this fairytale ending, and while so many of us loved it and cheered for, and it felt cathartic, the truth is in real life sadly, there’s another beat after that fairytale ending and people do die suddenly and tragically and Elisa and I have both been through that, and anyone at this age, I think sadly has some experience with that, and it felt like a very organic thing that would and could happen to this couple, sadly.
Elisa Zuritsky: And also, it felt true to the roots of what Sex and the City was, which is really an exploration of your relationship with yourself, and what was it at 35 and what is it for Carrie felt … Yeah, it just felt like the natural order of things and it felt really exciting to explore that as a writer. Okay, so here we have this iconic quasi fairytale, very real woman and who is she starting over again?
Geri Cole: So you said that’s what Michael Patrick King had brought to you. So that’s what you started with in the writer’s room. Can we talk a little bit about the writer’s room? I know that you guys have the podcast where you do sort of break things apart, but I’m curious about like how much … it’s like, “Okay, we start here,” and then, everything else was up to the room of where do we want to go now?
Julie Rottenberg: Well, there were a few pieces of the puzzle that Michael knew he had and one was Miranda going back to school to get another law degree, to pair with her law degree in human rights.
Elisa Zuritsky: And also that she had let her hair go gray. That was another piece which we loved.
Julie Rottenberg: We loved that idea. We knew … well in talking with Michael, Elisa, now I’m trying to remember. I know we sort of hatched that Seema character before we brought the room in. We were still sort of toying around with [crosstalk 00:16:36].
Elisa Zuritsky: The three of us had … Michael, Julie and I had … well, we had a few months headstart before the three new writers joined. So, we built some of the pieces, the three of us on top of the … he was the first layer and then, we came on.
Julie Rottenberg: Basically, those were the biggest things that had been decided or at least ideas that we wanted to bring to the room and obviously if they had hated any of them, we would’ve rethought them, but once the room came together and it was a Zoom room, which was for Elise and me, it was our first writer Zoom room, which until we did it, I thought this can’t work. This is impossible. You need to be in a room with the writers, like I was dreading it. I was like, “I hate Zoom. I’m exhausted after a Zoom,” and instead it actually renewed my faith in Zoom. It was actually … I would say, it did feel almost like we were in the same room together, and we were just marveling at the fact that we only just a few weeks ago, met some of the writers for the first time at the premier who we had never met. It was crazy. So once we brought everyone together-
Elisa Zuritsky: And I just want to say their names, Rachna Fruchbom, Samantha Irby, and Keli Goff, were the three additional writers that were brought on and they’re fantastic.
Julie Rottenberg: Amazing, amazing. They were so good and smart and funny, and what was … the added bonus for us having been on the last show is we got their perspective, because they had a different take on a lot of stuff, and because they … obviously, they weren’t involved in the first iteration, they brought to it, their own loves and hates or characters they miss or wanted to bring back or things that stuck with them. So, that really infused just great new energy into the whole process, and I think it’s a testament to Michael because the way he runs the writer’s room is basically on day one, you are getting naked, figuratively, not literally. You’re revealing your personal truth, your emotions, your fears, your … it’s a very honest writer’s room and he really sets that mode and everyone responded in kind, and it felt like a safe place to talk about some hard topics.
Geri Cole: Because you are pulling from real life … all of your real life experiences and so, it sounds like a very intimate thing to have to get into.
Elisa Zuritsky: Yeah. I mean, other rooms might call it oversharing. Again, that was the way we were raised in the Sex and the City writer’s room, was exactly that and you’re not only oversharing, but you’re also weighing in on other people’s stories and other people’s points of view. There is a spirit of … it’s conflict friendly, I would say. It’s not the kind of room where you are expected to just agree with everything that Michael says or love every idea he has or get on board with everybody else’s thoughts or even agree with the entire room, if that entire room is going one direction. He’s constantly picking up on … he’s definitely a great reader of faces and energy, and I don’t use the word energy a lot in this context, but he really can sense, even over zoom when a person has gone really quiet and is maybe sitting on some unhappy thoughts about where the room is going and has no problem saying, “Geri, you haven’t said anything for 10 minutes. You hate this.”
Julie Rottenberg: Tell me why.
Elisa Zuritsky: And he really wants to know, and sometimes the story will change, and sometimes your attitude about where the story is going will become one of the character’s attitudes about where the story is going. That’s where you get a lot of great conflict between the ladies, will come directly from the writer’s responses to each other.
Julie Rottenberg: He’ll often say, if someone doesn’t like the story or I don’t believe it, or I don’t … whatever isn’t working for a writer, even if he’s like, “Hell bent, we’re doing this story,” your issue with it will make the story better. So he’ll say, “That’s important. Here’s how we’re going to address that.” He always says, it’s like a jury room and we all have to get on board and usually the process makes the story stronger. It’s like every story has to be vetted until the end, until the final cut and it is such a collaborative process through the whole thing through the writer’s room production.
Geri Cole: That’s a part of why … and I want to get into this a little bit later, but it’s so important to have diverse rooms [crosstalk 00:22:05] east rooms because it makes things stronger. Speaking of like breaking the season and trying to figure out storylines. One of the things that I felt about, “And Just Like That,” and how it was different from Sex and the City was that I feel like in Sex and the City, all of the struggles felt very external, like it was all … things were always happening to the characters name where it’s like, how are they going to respond to this? “And Just Like That,” feels very internal. It’s like there were all internal struggles with each character and like how they’ve become themselves and then, it’s like having to renegotiate how they interact with the world. I wonder if that was the intention and just want to talk a little bit yeah, about each character’s sort of internal struggles and I guess that also sounds like those are being pulled from experiences in the room.
Julie Rottenberg: That’s such an interesting observation. I never thought of it that way. I think maybe because … I’m thinking about Miranda, you could argue that her internal struggle about her marriage was maybe percolating for a long time and then was activated by this run-in with Che. We all believe that in any affair, I think you could say, that the affair is usually a symptom, not the cause of a marriage breaking up. We felt strongly about that. We all felt that even if Che hadn’t come along, that at some point Miranda would have to face the fact that she wasn’t as happy in her marriage as she wanted to be.
Geri Cole: Also, it feels very true to life, which is a wonderful thing, because it does feel like, in your 30s, you’re trying to build your career and then you get it and then in your 40s and 50s, it’s like, “Oh shit. I’m trying to like-”
Julie Rottenberg: All this other stuff.
Geri Cole: Yeah. All this other stuff, and so it sort of feels very true and grounded also, I think.
Julie Rottenberg: I mean, one of the things that we look back on because on the first show, Elisa and I were both single. We didn’t have kids and then, between then and now we each got married and each had kids and looking back at the fact that Miranda had a baby and we were writing that when none of us had kids and we were like, “Oh, my God-”
Elisa Zuritsky: How do we get away with it?
Julie Rottenberg: Yes. How we were writing this whole maternal story without having lived it? So I think that was another reason we were excited to actually get to go back and do all those stories with Charlotte and her relationship to her kids as a mother and how being a parent changes you. That’s one of the … I think one of the scariest things I have found is being a parent and you think you have your shit together and you think you’ve figured yourself out, then these little gremlins come along and hold up a big mirror to you and you’re like, it’s a whole other thing.
Elisa Zuritsky: And it is a combination of external and internal with Charlotte because these things are kind of coming at her, these things, being her kids but the real work of it still comes back to yourself, and how are you going to get through these new and unforeseen challenges? I was looking for a better word for challenges because it doesn’t quite cut it.
Julie Rottenberg: Crises, I mean. Yeah, depending. Tornadoes.
Geri Cole: Yeah. Tiny tornadoes.
Julie Rottenberg: And I guess for Carrie, I’m just trying to think of … I guess for Carrie it’s also … it’s kicked off by a very external event of her husband dying, and then, her almost having to recalibrate who she is without him and knowing … because we all watched for all those seasons before they were together, she was a fully formed person on her own and we were excited to have her sort of have to … almost the way you have to relearn whether it’s a piece of music that you haven’t played in a while or a learning to walk after physical therapy. It’s almost like she has to relearn who she was, when she was single in a way that doesn’t bring her back, but moves her forward.
Geri Cole: Also, when I was talking about this earlier with Jason, we were talking about … to me, it feels like it’s a lot of her, sort of unpacking grief, but also like keeping it funny. It’s sort of like, that’s so tricky.
